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HAMMERAMA 2:59 Thu Nov 3
Martin Samuelson

This guy is a total show pony. Watching him on Monday night his imput to the game can best be summed up as frustrating. He has made no development since we signed him from Man City.
I was hoping he would move closer to Premier League standard after his Peterborough performances. What we got from him was a slow no end product performance weak shooting poor passing not wanting the ball.
I thought he was playing wide but kept drifting to the centre exposing the right sided defenders.

The game was pretty ugly as most of the play was compressed into the middle third of the pitch.
He was not alone there were also below par performance from Calleri and very average performances from Westley, Neuville, Makasi, Browne[booked very early on]
Players that did impress Sam Howes [big improvement from his Wycombe performance] Dom Quina what a good player we have there, Declan Rice another super solid performance and I thought Ashley Fletcher was very good a real presence in the oppositions area but worked really hard all over the pitch good temperament.

The lads were always in control of this game and have gone 3rd in the league.
Just a mention WBA had a Right Back whose name is Kane Wilson definitely one to watch

tnb 12:46 Tue Nov 8
Re: Martin Samuelson

'It' being the loan system, obviously.

tnb 12:40 Tue Nov 8
Re: Martin Samuelson

I think Alex is spot on. I mean, we never heard of those Defoe or Ferdinand chaps again did we after they went on loan to Bournemouth, or that young Lampard when he came back from Swansea.

Sarcasm aside, I think the loan system used in that way - a few promising youngsters, not too many to keep a proper eye on, as a stage of their development in terms of playing time but also potentially exposing them to a different atmosphere (I think it was Lampard who said he didn't realise how easy he had it at West Ham until he went out on loan) can and has worked very well.

Equally, if you have a player on your books who you no longer want but no one wants to buy them off you, loaning them out first may potentially help you shift them and also help out another club who need a stopgap but couldn't necessarily afford the initial outlay for a transfer. That can also end up with players turning out for clubs who you wouldn't normally expect- Alex Song for example, if he'd been bothered most of the time; ok it didn't work out but it shows the loan system can be democratising at times because whoever expected West Ham to sign a player from Barcelona? Of course we did nick a signing from under their noses with the great Gary Breen.

And then there are players trying to recover their fitness - Wilshere for an obvious example. There is no way even Alex can feel he would be better off doing that in the Arsenal reserves or how that scenario would suit his parent club better. He either gets back to some kind of consistency (unlikely as it seems) or he doesn't, but with a bit of luck Arsenal will still get a buyer as he has at least been visible.

The only problem for me comes with the way some teams like Chelsea are now using the loan system. Moses is an exception (as Courtois before him) - but the vast majority of their always huge numbers of players out on loan never see the inside of a Chelsea shirt again. And yet they keep going out until they're about 24 instead of the club admitting what everyone knows and cutting their losses. When they do, they even risk letting go quality prospects because they haven't had time to properly assess them, as seen with De Bruyne and the hilarity of having to sign Matic back for much more than they sold him for a few years earlier. Then when they are finally let go, you end up with players like Ryan Bertrand who everyone still talks about like he's a promising youngster when he's actually 27 and has already been through half of his career without ever really feeling he belonged anywhere.

Like any system it can be abused. For me it should be clear that a player is loaned out for one of three reasons and which one - development, fitness, or unwanted - and if it is the first of those and possibly the second too, the parent club ought to be able to closely monitor how they get on. There is no way that teams like Chelsea can properly keep an eye on all their loanees, I don't care how many staff they have, and equally it seems sometimes they haven't even got any idea *why* they're being sent out, other than there's just too many of them otherwise. It seems more like chucking shit at the wall and seeing what sticks, or just continually delaying making a decision by another season and another and another - leading to the above situation with fully grown adults still being treated like developing youngsters. I mean, is anyone telling me that Arsenal seriously think Carl Jenkinson is going to make it with them, and yet they tied him down to a new 5 year contract before letting him come on loan to us again - just so they can demand a fee when they finally cut him loose. If I was a young player and I knew the reserve (development...whatever) team was full of players in their mid 20s who had been around for ages but had no chance of breaking through themselves, I wouldn't fancy my chances much.

There's a stamp collecting mentality with some clubs at the moment and it's not healthy. A limit on the number of loans would be a start. But there's nothing wrong with it in principle.

Alex V 12:29 Tue Nov 8
Re: Martin Samuelson

I don't read shitty downmarket tabloids, but thanks so much for the suggestion.

Russ of the BML 11:26 Tue Nov 8
Re: Martin Samuelson

Alex V 4:06 Mon Nov 7

I am not sure what to say to you about the diet players have. I mean, in relation to what we are on about my only response can be: Are you drunk?

Well, ok maybe I agree about 'Long' loans. It's no good farming a player off for ages and ages without any real benefit or monitoring of his development. But you didn't say that did you? You made bold, factless statements about the loan system that you couldn't back up. You've now changed direction slightly which is altogether a bit more agreeable. I will take credit for making you reflect on your previous comments. Thank you. I like taking credit.

There was an article on page 16 of The Sun's 'Goal's' pull out yesterday. Interesting reading considering what we've been discussing. If you can get hold of a copy worth a read.

Alex V 4:06 Mon Nov 7
Re: Martin Samuelson

>>> If the loan system didn't work why would such a high number of top pro's have been through the system?

Most top players of previous eras had poor or inefficient diets, but it was found that by changing that improvements could be made. We didn't just refuse to question what pros were eating because most pros ate steak and chips in the past.

I agree with you that there are theoretical benefits of loans - as I've described there are theoretical weaknesses too. My view is that from the outside I don't think long loans are working, and alternatives should be looked at.

Russ of the BML 3:21 Mon Nov 7
Re: Martin Samuelson

Alex V 12:25 Mon Nov 7

"But I could find a lot of players on the scrapheap who also went on loan - does that prove the loan system doesn't work?"

No it doesn't. But I'm not the one making the bold contrary statements arguing against a system that probably three quarters of players have been through.

If the loan system didn't work why would such a high number of top pro's have been through the system?

I made a comment that loan spells are for the player to gain regular game time, match day experience, get and maintain match fitness, learn the game and be a responsible professional. And I stand by that. And no bollocks you spout will prove that the loan system doesn't do that. As I said, I have heard countless players say their loan spell made them.

On the whole the loan system is used in a similar to work experience in the real world. That is why it works.

As I said, it its black you say white. You've made very bold statements as if they were fact when actually you have fuck all evidence to back it up and simply argue a point as it goes against the norm.

Alex V 12:37 Mon Nov 7
Re: Martin Samuelson

Re: the 'system that produces generally poor results', I accept that I have my club hat on. I'm looking at it from the parent club's point of view, not the young players. The vast majority of players who go out on long loans seem to have little chance of ever making it at the parent club - that's my perception of it. There are exceptions - Coquelin is a fairly recent one.

I concede that players themselves often feel different. Someone mentioned Sean Maguire is doing well in Ireland, so he probably feels the loans from us set him up for a career at that level. But it hasn't helped West Ham - it was a waste of effort from our point of view.

Alex V 12:25 Mon Nov 7
Re: Martin Samuelson

I think there are problems with your argument. I'm not disputing that clubs use loans - you seem to be arguing that because you find a lot of players who went on loan, that the loan system therefore works. But I could find a lot of players on the scrapheap who also went on loan - does that prove the loan system doesn't work? Of course not. Neither approach is very useful.

Can you prove that the Bojan who went out on loan is a better player than the Bojan we don't know who didn't? No you can't, because we don't have alternate universes to compare.

Russ of the BML 10:24 Mon Nov 7
Re: Martin Samuelson

And just to prove my point I went onto Wikipedia and completely randomly picked 6 players from each side who played Saturday to check their career:

John Walters - Loaned out as a young player
Bojan - Loaned out as a young player
Charlie Adams - Loaned out as a young player
Peter Crouch - Loaned out as a young player
Phil Bardsley - Loaned out as a young player
Joe Allen - Loaned out as a young player
Dimitry Payet - No loan
Manuel Lanzini - Loaned out as a young player
Andre Ayew - Loaned out as a young player
James Collins - No loan
Kouyate - Loaned out as a young player
Mark Noble - Loaned out as a young player

That's just a random selection but shows 10 out of the 12 have been on loan deals as young players. What's that? About 85%?? And I think you'll find if you did that across all the games at the weekend you'll probably find similar results.

But you keep arguing loan deals are a bad idea.

Russ of the BML 10:09 Mon Nov 7
Re: Martin Samuelson

Alex you have made two statements on this thread that just beggar belief and honestly do cement your place as the most contrary person on planet earth.

Talking about the loan system you say ".... As system that produces generally poor results".

Jesus. Where do I start? Does it? Where's your evidence. The loan system generally produces poor results. Really? So when a club has a young player who is not quite good enough for the first team but needs to build up and maintain match fitness, needs general game time and match-day experience; you suggest what? Please enlighten me.

"If there was lot's of evidence of it working I's stop questioning it"

Bloody hell. Did you type that with a straight face or are you on a wind up? Please tell me you are on a wind up. If you aren't then can you please inform me of all the evidence to prove loan deals don't work?

You do realise that probably almost all players as young boys were loaned out at some point don't you?

And you are looking too much into it. A loan deal for a young player is not about sending out a Carlton Palmer and getting a Xavi in return. It's about experience, learning the game, getting fit, playing regularly. It's about making mistakes and then dealing with them. Learning from them. About building confidence. Preparing for top flight matches mentally and physically. Becoming a good professional. And not only that its about learning responsibility. About maturing and growing up within the game. Learning how to be a professional off the pitch too. I suppose a bit like work experience in the real world for a 16 or 17 year old.

I have heard countless players say a brief loan deal to a lower league was the making of them.

If you have evidence that loan deals will not help a player in the ways I have described then show me.

camel-with-3-humps 9:54 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

Over-hyped and not good enough. May reach the standard but will take years. Nothing to see here. Move on.

Alex V 4:39 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

>>> fans of the loan system - Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Klopp, Guardiola, Pochettino, Bilic

Nonsense. Every club uses loans, it simply does not follow that everyone is a fan of the loan system. As I said, it may in cases be the least worst alternative, rather than a positive choice.

As I hinted earlier, Wenger and Pochettino are at clubs that seem to noticably be using the loan system far less than before, and being careful which clubs they loan to as well.

I don't think you'll find a single manager who knows the English game who doesn't think the way we deal with young players is in need of serious reform. That's why homegrown rules came in, and why we had an U-21 and now U-23 league introduced - to try and deal with this issue.

Eggbert Nobacon 4:28 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

I was only listing important people

One McAvennieeeeee 4:26 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

You missed out griffin, eggy son?

Eggbert Nobacon 4:22 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

fans of the loan system - Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Klopp, Guardiola, Pochettino, Bilic


Not fans of the loan system - Alex V

Sven Roeder 4:17 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

Its about being out of your comfort zone and dealing with some 'difficulties'.
Even if that's entertaining yourself in Blackburn and not having mummy cook your dinner.
I'd call that all part of developing a rounded person and a part that is difficult to achieve at your home club

Of course you do it based on the player. Some are ready to be playing 1st team football at 18 and some might be better served by staying at the club and having parts of their game worked on by our coaches.

Alex V 4:03 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

>>> Trying 'maturing' or 'growing up' if you don't like toughening up.

But why don't we just provide an environment where players are encouraged to mature? I don't see why living out of a hotel in the North of England for a year even provides that experience. It's just as likely to just produce players who are isolated and unhappy, or feel abandoned by their parent club, disillusioned about the sport and their future.

If there was lots of evidence of it working I'd stop questioning it. But as I've pointed out so many of the top players in the modern era never went on loan at all. Maybe they were the tougher ones that didn't need it, but maybe nobody really needs it and it's just a myth.

One McAvennieeeeee 3:57 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

I think the loan system for younger players is a brilliant idea. It's not just about coaching. Maybe he isn't doing enough to get into the Blackburn side? I'd like to think he'll keep working hard and force the manager to notice him.

I don't agree with loaning players from the same division though.

Alex V 3:57 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

That's a reply to JustAFatKevinDavies 3:48 Fri Nov 4

Alex V 3:56 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

Yep I've said it a handful of times on here. I think it's an interesting topic that's a pet peeve of mine that doesn't come up much elsewhere. And when people challenge me on it I'm happy to respond.

Looking at other premiership clubs this season, it does seem there are far fewer loans to lower leagues than there used to be imo. It might be that other clubs are realising it too.

stewie griffin 3:55 Fri Nov 4
Re: Martin Samuelson

Must say, I think that 'tough league' stuff about the Championship is a load of bollocks.

Over the last 5 years, the clubs who've earned automatic promotion have almost exclusively been the best footballing sides in the division. The shit kickers and teams packed with 'experience' have squeaked through the play offs sometimes, or done fuck all

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